Jul 20, 2023

NGPF Podcast: Anmol Mittal, Founder of Climate and Money, on Keeping GenZ Engaged

Recent high school graduate Anmol Mittal shares about how he created a online board game that helps young students learn about budgeting and saving in a fun way. He offers insight on how to keep personal finance engaging for GenZ.


Ren Makino: Hi, this is Ren from Next Gen Personal Finance. And you're listening to the NGPF podcast. Today on the show, Tim is joined by Anmol Mittal, the Founder of Climate and Money. Anmol has developed a free online board game with the aim to help students jumpstart their futures by learning about budgeting and saving in a fun way. He will talk about his motivations to create the game. what he learned through the process, and what he hopes students will learn through playing. He has also recently published an article in the Journal of Urban Climate regarding environmental justice in Richmond's historically redlined communities and will share his insights on the topic. It is so great to see a member of GenZ, so passionate about personal finance and Anmol shares a couple of tips on how to keep students of his generation engaged in the classroom. I hope you enjoy. 

Tim Ranzetta: I am really excited to have Anmol Mital as our guest today. Really excited to hear about his entrepreneurial journey and his interests, which are pretty darn broad. So let's kick things off. Welcome Anmol 

Anmol Mital: Hi, thanks for having me. 

Tim Ranzetta: All right. Why don't we kick things off? I'll let you, rather than have me do it, I'll let you introduce yourself. 

Anmol Mital: Sure. So, my name is Anmol. I'm from Richmond, Virginia, and I'm 17 years old right now. I just graduated from high school at Maggie Walker Governor's School. And I'll be heading to Rice for my undergrad. 

Tim Ranzetta: Oh, all right. So isn't that Governor's School, some sort of fancy school? Like tell us more about it. 

Anmol Mital: Yeah, sure. Like a governor's school, it's free of a school district, so a bunch of other school districts feed into the school. You applied again in like eighth grade and if you're selected then you get to be one of 250 people or so who make up one class. So yeah. 

Tim Ranzetta: Awesome. Then it's kind of college prep focused. 

Anmol Mital: Sure. Yeah, you could say that for sure. 

Tim Ranzetta: All right. What are you interested in studying at Rice? 

Anmol Mital: I'm thinking math, econ, so mathematical economics and computer science. Those are my two.

[00:01:57] Early Money Lessons

Tim Ranzetta: Awesome. So I always like to tell, and you're a lot closer to this than most of us on the call here. Always interested in parents, whether they know it or not, are modeling behaviors when it comes to money in terms of teaching lessons, I wondered if money was something that was talked about in your household and maybe some things you learned from your parents. Either they told you or you observed them. 

Anmol Mital: Sure. I kind of remember always being interested in money as a child. I don't know really when that started, but, I'm sure that my parents had some influence. 

Tim Ranzetta: Cool. First job you ever had either paid or unpaid? 

Anmol Mital: First job. Okay. I was like an equity research intern at a little company in Richmond this year. So I think that'd be my first job. 

Tim Ranzetta: All right. Folks may be wondering, you used some fancy terms there, equity, yeah. Talk about what that role involved. 

Anmol Mital: Sure. So equity research is basically just a fancy way of saying stock picking. Where you go through like past reports, financial data, SEC filings, try to understand if a company has growth potential and whether your firm is in a good position to invest in that company. Yeah. That's what equity research is. 

Tim Ranzetta: Cool. That was actually the first job. What you did as an internship was the first job I had coming out of business school. Did they have you focus on an industry specifically or give you a set of companies they wanted you to analyze?

Anmol Mital: So I did healthcare for most of the year and then at the end I switched to oil and gas and renewables and stuff. 

Tim Ranzetta: One thing most people would know about, not know about the stock market, based on your experience?

Anmol Mital: Sure. Yeah. I think like a couple years ago I got really in interested in investing in all that stuff and I was reading like some books and I remember being really shocked to learn that the like S&P 500, on the average does better than like most Americans could on their own. Like if you were to curate your own portfolio, do all this reading, that the average is actually better than what you could do. So that was really shocking to me. 

Tim Ranzetta: Yeah, I kind of wish I knew that before I got into equity research where I actually had the hubris to believe that I could do better than the market. It only took me a year to realize, maybe it's easier to buy the index. That's fascinating. What a great lesson to learn at a young age. I kind of had to make a lot of mistakes before I figured that out. You've spent a lot of time, you know, not just recently, like over the last two, three years, to creating personal finance resources, and traveling to conferences to present your work. So maybe talk a little bit about your motivation, like what motivated you to go ahead and do that and maybe speak more specifically about those resources too. 

[00:04:22] Interest in Personal Finance Education 

Anmol Mital: Sure. Okay. I think I realized that I wanted to, you know, work on this personal finance, like the game that I built, and I'll talk about that in a minute. You know, I was reflecting back on my whole like K through 12 journey and I found that a lot of my interest in personal finance, I was always really interested in money and I had like, done all these lemonade stands as a kid, played so many rounds of Monopoly and I just finished this school mandated, like an online personal finance course. And I remember feeling a bit confused after taking it. Like I felt that like I understood the terminologies and all that, but I didn't clearly see how it would fit into my life. And I realized that if maybe earlier on I had built up some repertoire of personal finance knowledge directly, maybe in school or something, I would've had more success understanding what was going on with personal finance and high school. And so I did a lot of reading. And then began working on this personal finance game for fourth through sixth graders. And I chose that like the very niche subgroup. Because I think that is really where our interests start to develop and where we began to, you know, see what we wanna do in the future where we are kind of exiting this bubble of just me, me, me.

So I started focusing fourth to sixth grade, and I saw that there really weren't any resources online for people to learn about that or for younger kids to learn about that. And so I initially I built this PowerPoint that, you know, me and a team of volunteers, we'd go into a classroom and we worked at, we work with our Richmond City Public Schools right here in Virginia. You know, working with the students, we built this powerPoint that was basically run on Macros. So it's like a game, but it's like it has to be facilitated by people. And we played that for a couple months and eventually I realized that it'd be a lot better to move to an online game. So like we can expand out of Virginia.

And obviously I can't have a team of volunteers going all across the country. So we built this online game. And so what I came up with is now called Wrold of Finance, and it's like an online Monopoly style board game. And it allows students to make financial decisions within the context of a month.

So, for example, you start off, you choose your home, you invest some money stuff like that. And they have this familiar Monopoly format that I built. And that really allows students to feel comfortable with the game and to understand what's going on without getting lost in all the details.

[00:06:32] Process Developing a Game

Tim Ranzetta: When you say you built this game, sounds like you've got a CS background. So you literally built the game program. What did you learn along the way as you were building? Because it sounds like you did what every great Entrepreneur does, which is kind of build empathy with your customer. And you were in the classroom, you were working through this with PowerPoints, and then you shifted to this online game. What was that learning process like? 

Anmol Mital: We ran into a ton of like hurdles on the way. I remember our very first session we had it with like a very local school. And basically how the game ran is it's a PowerPoint and you have one volunteer works with a group of five or so students. And there's like, we would tell you to make a chart because like, it was virtual, so we couldn't tell students to print something out or do anything like that. So we would literally tell students, you know, draw a line here, do this and make this chart where you can budget your expenses. I think that was a huge learning experience for me because, you know, we had a feedback form and when, when I got back the feedback, the students were like, I like the game, but I hate the worksheet. I cannot do the worksheet. We hate worksheets. So that was a huge learning for me to really make it easy on the student.

Because, you know, they're already going through, like they're learning a lot right from the game and having to adjust basically how they learn. But yeah, having this extra hurdle of the worksheet, that was a, like a big challenge and a lot of students ended up missing the point of the game because of that worksheet. And so I think those kind of experiences were I think ultimately extremely helpful along the way. 

Tim Ranzetta: How about, I mean, you poured a lot of energy into this both creating it as well as doing all this market research and going out to schools. You know, in every entrepreneurial journey, there's a point too where you get this tremendous feedback and it's like it feeds. You may not be getting paid for a product that you put out to the world and you know where you want students to and teachers to find it and access it. And so you have to kind of find non-monetary rewards. Do you wanna share some feedback that kind of really, help motivate you to continue?

Anmol Mital: Sure. So I think one of my biggest motivating feedback, so it was very early on in the journey. I think this teacher emailed me and said, I love the game. My students have been talking about it all recess. And they will not stop talking about the bad decisions or you know, some kid decided to be a freeloader and screw the jobs, I'm just gonna do nothing. And so, like those kind of things really pushed me along the way cuz I realized that, you know, not only were kids learning, but they really enjoyed it too. So that, yeah, that was a big motivating factor for me. 

Tim Ranzetta: What would you hope, or what's the feedback students give that help tell you that, okay, I've achieved my mission here in terms of what I want them to learn.

Anmol Mital: I know what I will do in real life because that one sentence that was really important to me. Like students understanding what they would do in the future and being able to play this game and see personal finance not only in this abstract concept like, yes, you should save for retirement, which is 40 years out and, you know, save and budget and all that, but that they can see a life for themselves in which they have their like money under control and which they know what they're doing.

[00:09:21] The Shortcomings of Online Modules

Tim Ranzetta: Actually, I wanna go back to something you said earlier, cuz I think it's important too. So you're in Virginia, it's a state requirement that every student has to take a one semester course in personal finance. It sounds like you took an online version of it. Give me your critique of it. 

Anmol Mital: My critique. Basically from what I saw, right, it was this online module where you complete these very, very simple things. Like maybe you do a couple calculations, but mostly you're clicking the next button. And like speaking from my experience and what I know my friends did is like, you know, just click next. You spam the next button. You try to get done with it as soon as you possibly can. And then you go and take the, the quiz online and it's not that hard, so you can figure it out without actually taking the module, and you only need 95 to get an A plus. So it was, I think that. In that sense, like it wasn't, it was online, but it wasn't engaging.

So I think it's slightly missed the point. I do think it was a good effort by the state to, you know, build an online course and really reach all the students doing virtual. And that's a huge challenge. You know, I think I'm sure if I were to take it now, it would be a better course now, but I think having that online component isn't the only thing. Being online did not make it engaging, if you know what I mean. 

Tim Ranzetta: Good, good. I can keep telling people what I've been saying then. This class is a lot better when it's taught by an instructor. Does your school offer, is it taught in person and kind of, you couldn't fit in your schedule, so that's kind of why you took the online? Or is it like, okay, the only way you can take personal finance at the governor's school is to take this online course? 

Anmol Mital: From what I know, we don't offer personal finance. We do offer economics., You have to take personal finance and economics. You can skip the economics portion if you just take AP econ, the next year with our amazing Ms. Anthony. 

Tim Ranzetta: Okay. Shout out to your teacher, right?

Anmol Mital: So Ms. Anthony, like when I was doing like the Council for Economic Education Conference, she drove all the way up on Saturday morning to come watch me present. And so that was really awesome of her. During econ class, one thing I loved that she did, she would always, like every week or two, like the Fed Friday jobs report, she'd talk about that. Have us ask questions. We have a little debate or, you know current events. She also did that. That was awesome of her to do that. 

Tim Ranzetta: Yeah. That is awesome. That's literally going the extra mile on a Saturday morning. So now you've piqued my curiosity. What did you present at the Council for Economic Education? Was this the national conference? 

Anmol Mital: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that was, yes.

Tim Ranzetta: Awesome. How was that? 

Anmol Mital: Uh, a great opportunity and a very, very cool opportunity to meet so many different teachers like you all, who, you know, are just trying to get the best materials for their students. it was a little intimidating at first, you know, I was like 16 years old back then, and I didn't really know what I was doing. So just having so many reassuring teachers who, you know, knew that I was. Trying my best to present to a bunch of people and to kind of push like the materials of personal finance that we have. So that was, yeah. Amazing experience all around. 

[00:12:06] Adding a Lesson Plan

Tim Ranzetta: So you really know how to get teachers to love you. You've put a lesson plan on your website to go along with the game. Why'd you do something crazy like that? 

Anmol Mital: So when I first started the game, it started off in classrooms. My intention was never for it to be something that people just played on their own time. I mean, that's a good thing. But you know, that was the only thing. So I wanted to, you know, after making the game online and available online, I wanted to bring it back to classrooms. So I built this lesson plan to make it more scalable, cuz we can't have a volunteer team like training every single teacher that plays the game. So in order to make it scalable, I released this lesson plan. And the lesson plan isn't like a worksheet or anything, it's just a very simple guide of no questions you might wanna ask your students after the game. Maybe some materials you need, how you can facilitate the game, things like that. So yeah. 

[00:12:55] Making Lessons Accessible

Tim Ranzetta: Cool. We've got all these teachers here. This is your chance. You're a member of Gen Z. . What are the ways educators can think about crafting their lessons and their activities to engage your generation?

Anmol Mital: Sure. So I think, when thinking about Gen Z I think it's important to consider the backdrop. So, you know, Gen Z is very, you know, people throw on the term digital native. What that means is that we're used to decision making and exploring on our own, mostly through like the autonomy of the internet.

 Teachers, in my opinion, they can use this to their advantage by providing activities where it's not like just a very, very simple worksheet where you, you know, go on a linear path and follow all the instructions, but rather, a more interactive activity where we can make choices, you know, decide strategies or, you know, think concepts through by ourselves. In my opinion, this doesn't need to just take shape through like that online module or an online game like mine. But really it could be as simple as like, you know, for a personal finance course, maybe you have students design or retirement savings plan for a very eccentric little couple who knows, right?

Something like that. And I think that the possibilities for these type of activities to ingrain knowledge into a student's minds is quite endless. And I think more than what we're exploring right now.

[00:14:06] Journal Article 

Tim Ranzetta: All right, great. I've got one more question, so not only have you presented at a national conference, Not only is your game on Econ EdLink, but you had a paper published in an online journal about environmental economics. Tell us more about that. 

Anmol Mital: Sure. So, my paper is in empirical analysis of historical redlining, and in case you don't know what that is, it's basically the 1930s. The government took basically a map of cities and they cut it up into random pieces depending on race, ethnicity, you know, foreign background. Like if you had a bunch of foreign immigrants into one little sector, they would say, okay, you're red. And that means that we will advise lenders not to give you money. And what that led to is a bunch of long-term disinvestment. Communities don't have money to rebuild and to build better. And so what I studied is how that affected environmental degradation in my hometown, which is Richmond, Virginia.

And what I found was like the two main findings in my opinion, are that historically, redlined communities are doing slightly better than we would imagine, and they are improving in certain areas, but getting worse than others. So for, again, environmentally, I mean, so for example one of the main metrics I looked at was PM 2.5. So particulate matter, it's like little tiny particles in the air. And if you breathe them, if you breathe in a lot of them, you can get things like asthma. You know, your health goes down to drain. So, yeah, so I found that PM 2.5 worsened significantly in redline communities, comparatively to other communities, which basically puts them at a, or puts marginalized communities at a higher health risk and also at a much worse environmental risk. And that makes it harder to recover in the future. 

Tim Ranzetta: So that might be due to where the community is relative to factories. It could also be exactly proximity. To highways cuz they carved up cities, right? You know split neighborhoods up with highways. Any other factors? 

Anmol Mital: Yeah, those are exactly the two that you mentioned. Like there's this big interstate I 95 that runs right through Richmond and it really hits on those marginalized communities the most. And the second thing, which you mentioned, industrial zones. So basically all the industrial zones in Richmond, Virginia are focused like towards those red line communities, which, you know, I think that is, at least now it's not intentional. We don't mean to do that anymore. But in the 1930s, you know, you dump them where you don't want to see them. Right? And the people who are dumping them are these, you know, inspectors or the contractors who live in hiring income neighborhoods. So it doesn't matter to them. So they put them in these lower income neighborhoods.

And then the second big thing I found was like kinda the opposite of that where we found that, or I found that wastewater infrastructure. I found that, you know, we've, like Richmond has a lot of targeted infrastructure developments, like 800 million, like crazy like that to improve wastewater infrastructure in redline communities, and that's done a ton to help them improve their wastewater infrastructure scores and that that largely helps to decrease like environmental and health risk on Redland communities. So yeah. 

Tim Ranzetta: What got you interested in this? I mean, obviously it's in your backyard, it's in the community, but I wonder what kind of, was it the New York Times article that got you thinking like, Hey, this is in my backyard and that I'm, I wanna do something more about highlighting this as an issue and doing some of my own research, but yeah. I wonder what spurred your thinking. 

Anmol Mital: So, yeah, I had read that article, a few years back, and then I went to this, like, I joined this program like called sponsored by the Chesapeake Bay Foundation. Some of you on the East coast might be familiar with it. But they basically, yeah, CBF does a bunch of activities and a bunch of, they have a bunch of resources to help students, you know, design projects and to get involved with the community.

So I was talking with somebody who's now my mentor who works at the Chesapeake Bay Foundation and you know, I was like, I wanna do some research. And someone had thrown around the word environmental justice while I was at the summit they were hosting. And so, I mentioned that word and, you know, he's got, he got talking with me, he connected me to some folks, like some researchers at CBF. And as I started to talk with them, I found this problem and I thought it was, you know, really important. And I thought back to the, the New York Times article and everything kind of clicked and I realized that this kind of research is what I wanted to focus on. And so, yeah, that's where this was born out of. 

[00:18:14] Favorite Personal Finance Resources

Tim Ranzetta: I get the sense you're a voracious reader and consumer of media. What are your favorite, maybe favorite books or favorite sites or favorite podcasts? Give us some of your favorites when it comes to personal finance. 

Anmol Mital: Personal finance. I just have lots of free time, I guess. I basically just get home and I start reading and doing all this kind of stuff. The reading stuff, I like to read a lot of, like, for some reason I get sucked into like credit card reviews and stuff like that, so I read a lot of those. Done a lot of like NerdWallet reading, many like tiny personal finance blogs, some YouTube. And i, for some reason, like to play around with like I think the US government has this compound interest calculator. So I used to play around with that when I was reading a lot about finance. The Wall Street Journal has Bad Bets or something, something like that. It's about like failed businesses. Like I know they did one on Enron, which I listened to a while back. the classic book by Burton Malkiel, A Random Walk Down Wall Street. That's my favorite book on finance. And I do read a lot of econ books as well. So there's a book on development economics called The Elusive Quest for Growth. A fantastic book that kind of goes through a lot of economists failures in helping developing economies prosper and why those failures, and it really drives down the point of incentives. I love that book. Then I'll just recommend one more. It's called, Naked Economics by Charles Wheeler or Wheelan. I don't think he's an economist, but it, it does a very, very good job of helping you understand the basics and applying it to like, some real world things like hippo poaching and stuff like that. Just things you wouldn't think of as a beginner in economics. 

[00:19:44] GenZ Money Issues

Tim Ranzetta: Are you the go-to guy when it comes to money issues around your friends? 

Anmol Mital: Yeah. I have had many friends come up to me and say, I made a terrible decision. Can you help me? 

Tim Ranzetta: I wish they took the class before.. What do you think your generation misses the most? Or myths or misconceptions or the, you know, the issues that come up most frequently.

Anmol Mital: I think the big part of it is like overspending or it, it's very basic, like very cliche, but like spending too much because you see something on Instagram or YouTube and you're like, okay, you know what? I need that. Click. And you buy it. It's become very easy to access your money. And there's like, you know, all of the, like these Apple Pay things, you can take your phone NFC and you click it and it just makes your transaction for you. So you don't even have to do the, the motion of the swipe or like the one click. Shopping on Amazon. I have many friends who have Amazon Prime addictions. Those are a little bit worrying. So that kind of stuff is, very, yeah, it's quite concerning to me at least. 

Tim Ranzetta: What a great point. Yeah. I mean, everybody in the world is trying to reduce friction. The amount of time and thought that goes into how do, how can you go from, a desire to actually, to the purchase and there's a lot of data scientists focused on that. That's interesting. I do remember actually when chips first came out, the chip cards and you'd put it in and you'd wait like 30 or 40 seconds and people would be like, okay, come on. Like, this was like the first week or two of the rollout cuz they didn't, you know, they were still learning themselves how to manage that process. And now it's almost instantaneous. It's like if you get too close with your phone, it's gonna, it's gonna get triggered. Since, you know, a, you know, quite a bit about investing both kind of on the equity research where you're working at a firm that was trying to beat the market, right? Find stocks that are gonna perform well. And, but you have this, you also have this knowledge that, you know, the recent data I've seen is like 94% of active managers, people trying to beat the market fall short. What's your early investment strategy? 

[00:21:41] Investment Strategy

Anmol Mital: My early investment strategy. Okay. Right now I have very little money. I don't have many income sources, so I don't invest as much or I don't invest much money. What I do is I have a couple like CDs and I have like these staggered CDs, if you will. Like, one, you know, one that ends at six months, another one's at a year. So you know you have money as you need it. And then if you want, you can roll 'em back into CDs. So that makes up like half of my money, I guess, because actually just small amount. It's, you know, immaterial. So yeah, the other half of my money, I have it in like stocks that I'd bought long time ago before I really knew anything about, about the stock market. Because of the recent bull market over the last three years. I mean, it's slowed down a bit, but they're still doing okay. Because of that. I have some money from there. So I do, I have some smaller stocks that I've done pretty well. Although they really shouldn't have. There was nothing that I did to make them go well. There was, yeah, no expertise in that part. But yeah, stocks and CDs is what I've done. 

Tim Ranzetta: You are a humble individual because when stocks go up, usually it's, well, because I had this brilliant insight, and you figured that out already. I remember actually, I had an interview job Where you had to pitch a stock, I dunno if you had to do that for the internship, but part of the interview process is tell us about a stock you purchased and the rationale and how it did. And I was so proud, like over a three month period, it was up 20%. And, and the person interviewing me looked at me and he was like, oh, you were lucky. I was like the balloon burst folks. I thought I was going down in flames after that happened. So that's interesting. So how did you, those individual stocks you picked, they were just companies you already had interest in, you knew about that kind of, you know, buy what you know, was that kind of your thesis or did you actually kind of do a little more in-depth research? 

Anmol Mital: So I, I bought these stocks in ninth grade when the company crashed for the first time. So I just went onto like Yahoo Finance and I was like, oh, wow. Wells Fargo is down, like $20. I should buy it cuz it'll go back up for no reason. So I bought Wells Fargo and then I have Tesla because everyone's buying Tesla. Yeah, that's, that's pretty much what I have. 

Tim Ranzetta: Okay. So that is the beginnings of a value investor. If you're young, you actually hope for drawdowns like that. But if you're close, if you're older like me, like, and folks who are closer to retirement, that's definitely sequence of returns kind of, you don't want that to happen just as you're about to retire to the extent that you're relying on that for your nest egg. Yeah. And actually just to go back to your current strategy, so what you're doing, and you probably know this term, you're laddering CDs. So this idea of kind of putting money away, because we don't know what it, what interest rates are, are gonna do, right? So you see some people who are saying, yeah. If they can afford it, you know, hey, there's CDs out there, two year CDs, I think 5%. And like, okay, if I can get a guaranteed 5% return, that's pretty good as one element in my portfolio. And then, but this idea of, because you don't know where interest rates are gonna do, you buy a six month, a 12 month, and 18 month and a 24 month CD and you spread it out, and then you're able to roll over, you know, the six months. So if interest rates go higher, okay, maybe then you can make another decision about what timeframe. But clearly college is on your mind. You don't need the money for a little period of time. So, hey, take advantage of this. You know, this is something you couldn't do a year and a half ago. It wouldn't be worth your time. So that's great that you're capitalizing on interest to help pay for college

This was awesome. I'll let you get the last, last word here. Tell 'em about why personal finance is so important to be taught to your generation. 

Anmol Mital: Sure. I guess last word for today would be like, lemme try to make this good. I think a big thing is to really introduce a subject and get your students a little bit hooked on it. You don't need to, I think in the beginning, you don't need to go too much in depth. I guess for me a big thing was just little tiny nuggets here and there that led me to being interested in personal finance. So, you know, show your students that you that personal finance is important to you. I think if you do that, they will slowly start to realize that it might be important for them and also to, I think, share with them maybe like online resources or places where they can, you know, read and learn on their own and they can kind of explore and do all the autonomous learning that I talked about earlier. In a large part, teachers are a pretty big role model to students, whether they want to admit it or not. So I think use that relationship to your advantage and, you know, try to lead your students in a good path financially. 

Tim Ranzetta: Love that advice. You know, this idea that if it's important to teachers, it'll be important to students. And I think being able to share our own financial journeys, people love stories, right? They love, we think in narratives. And so I wanna thank you again, Anmol. 

Anmol Mital: Yeah. Thank you everyone for coming. I do appreciate that. And of course, all the support that you guys have been giving me tonight. 

Ren Makino: I hope you enjoy this episode with Tim and Anmoll I have a few final housekeeping items before we go. The show notes and full transcript can be found on ngpf.org/podcasts. You can also join the sessions live and ask the speaker questions by signing up for a NGPF speaker series session that occur on Thursdays at 4:00 PM. Pacific time, you can sign up to attend on ngpf.org/virtual-pd. Please be sure to subscribe to the NGPF podcast on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts better yet. Leave us a review. We love hearing from you, and it will help us reach a broader audience on behalf of Tim and AMO. They, you so much for tuning into this NGPF podcast. See you next week. 

About the Author

Ren Makino

Ren started interning at NGPF in 2014, and worked part-time through high school and college. With his knowledge growing alongside NGPF, he joined the team to work full-time after graduating from college in 2020. He is also the producer of the NGPF podcast. During his free time, he likes to try out coffees from different roasters across the world.

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